Sea G Rhydr is heading across America by covered wagon with Shetland ponies and a corgi named Thick — and she had questions. I had answers, from crossing cattle guards to whether your horse needs a diaper.
Follow Sea’s journey at FreeRangeRodeo.com.
Auto-generated transcript. Refer to audio to fact check.
- Navigating gates and cattle guards — (00:09)
- Blocking a wagon on a hill using rocks and brakes — (01:34)
- Getting a wide wagon across a cattle guard without a gate — (05:34)
- Stopping to reprovision: tying up and managing public attention — (07:17)
- Check reins: pros, cons, and Bernie’s decision not to use them — (09:29)
- Building a bond with your animals before departure — (11:40)
- Transitioning from a two-wheel cart to a wagon: breastplate friction and short starting days — (15:13)
- Voice commands for driving: Ho, Gee, Haw, Easy, Step Up — (22:05)
- Backing a wagon safely: ground training and avoiding rearing — (31:12)
- Managing the dog Thick on the road and near the wagon — (28:50)
Bernie Harberts (00:05) What are the top three things you want to go over today?
Sea G Rhydr (00:09) Gates. When you’re going down the road and you’ve got a choice between a cattle guard and a gate — you’re obviously not going over the cattle guard — but the reins aren’t long enough to hang on to your mule or your horse on the other side of the gate while you go back and shut it. That is my biggest stress right now. How do you go through a gate when you’re driving?
Bernie Harberts (00:28) I really wish the Lost Sea Expedition full-length feature film was already up on YouTube, because I show exactly what I do in that situation. I was coming uphill to a cattle guard with a gate next to it. Obviously not going across the cattle guard. This was with Polly. So what I did was walk her up the hill, lead her up to the gate, tie her off to the fence, and then run back and stick a rock under the wheel to block the wagon. I did have brakes at that point, but my brake was busted — so keep that in mind.
Sea G Rhydr (01:38) The brake on my wagon requires my foot to be on it to stay engaged.
Bernie Harberts (01:52) So you don’t have a lock on your brake? On that type of wagon you probably won’t have what I’d call a park brake. The Pioneer wagon and the forecart I use have a little cam and latch so you can push the brake pedal down and lock it. Mine was busted, so I just put a rock behind the wheel so it wouldn’t slide back. Not something you carry, but it works.
Then I tied Polly off to the fence, got out, and scoped everything out. Tied off and safe. I realized she couldn’t pull the wagon through the gate — it was a wire gate on a steep slope, too narrow. So my plan was: pull the wagon right up to the cattle guard, stop her, unhook her, walk her through the gate, take her to the other side, and tie her up. Stabilize the horse first, then the wagon. Then I pulled the wagon across the cattle guard myself — bump, bump, bump. Got across, put the rock back under the wheel, set the brake, and hooked Polly back up.
Now in the documentary version, I couldn’t pull it myself. So what I did was park the wagon in front of the cattle guard, tie Polly on the other side, take my picket rope and back her up, attach the picket to the wagon shafts, step her up, and she pulled the wagon across the cattle guard for me. Then I chalked the wheel, undid the picket, and put her back in the shafts. That’s how you get across a cattle guard uphill when the wagon’s too heavy to pull yourself.
Sea G Rhydr (05:17) That does it. That’s the thing keeping me up at night. Now I can sleep. What if there’s no gate next to the cattle guard? Did you carry boards?
Bernie Harberts (05:34) I did not carry boards. On two occasions out West I came to padlocked gates. In both cases I was able to find where the wire was attached to the post next to the gate, unwire it, pull it back, lead Polly through, and then pull the wagon over the cattle guard. If you’ve only got a three or four foot opening, you’re not getting your wagon through — but you can get the horse through and pull the wagon across separately.
Sea G Rhydr (06:18) My wagon is going to be close to five feet wide. I wanted three feet of bed width to have enough room for the wheels to turn, and I’m not going to sleep in a two-foot-wide coffin.
Bernie Harberts (06:26) That’s how you get a five-foot wagon across a cattle guard when there’s no gate but there’s a two-foot gap. And out of respect, I always wired the fence back up afterward. Those padlocked gates really bothered me — locking a gate is a violation of the code of the West and of cattle guard etiquette. You never lock a gate.
Sea G Rhydr (07:06) I ran into that on Forest Service land. Not cool. When you pull up to a grocery store to reprovision and tie up outside — did people ever mess with your stuff?
Bernie Harberts (07:46) Not in a dangerous way, but I was always very aware that people do crazy things. Polly does not like to be ridden. She threw a man who tried to ride her — crushed his collarbone, sent him to the hospital. So imagine my surprise when I came out of a grocery store one day and there’s a kid sitting on Polly’s back that some parent hoisted up there for a photo op. It turned out fine, but my rule of thumb was: get in, get out, tie up somewhere behind the store if at all possible. Attention can be great, but a grocery store parking lot is not the place to look for it.
Sea G Rhydr (08:31) I’m worried about somebody feeding my ponies a whole box of sugar cubes.
Bernie Harberts (08:52) That never happened to me. Another thing to think about — quite often when I was going to a tractor supply, I’d time it with a lunch break. I’d get the wagon behind the store, find a tree and a little grass, take Polly out of harness, and let her eat. Going into the store became her lunch break too.
Sea G Rhydr (09:29) Did you use a check rein?
Bernie Harberts (09:37) I did not. A check rein keeps their head up so if they run, they can’t tuck their chin and bolt. But the problem is it also keeps them from grazing the bar ditch. I don’t like martingales, I don’t use draw reins, I don’t use any of that stuff. I want the horse to move as freely and comfortably as possible. A check rein keeps their head up on a hill when they need to lean into the collar and pull.
Sea G Rhydr (10:29) Did you have to do any training to get rid of the check rein, or can you just take it off?
Bernie Harberts (10:36) I never used one. I’d just not use it. There’s no untraining involved — it’s more important to build a solid foundation with the animal.
Sea G Rhydr (11:06) How long did you work with Polly before you took off? I’m going to have a week or two, which seems crazy short.
Bernie Harberts (11:13) I’d actually tried her out on a trip with another mule as part of a team, and she was perfect. I could have left a week after I bought her. She was twelve years old, broke, good temperament, just a great mule. I did go back and have her a couple of months before we took off. But in the past I’ve left quicker without that relationship, and physically I could do it — there was just a lot more reflexive rodeo riding. I’d do it differently now. I’d spend more time. These horses don’t know you. They’re like, who’s this?
Sea G Rhydr (12:14) Mine are seven and eight years old. They got picked because they’re too forward for kids their size. I’ve watched video of them trotting eleven miles an hour down the road, chomping at the bit. With little kids that’s a problem, but going ten or fifteen miles a day down the road it might be perfect.
Bernie Harberts (13:02) Could be exactly right. When do they start working?
Sea G Rhydr (13:08) The second week of March. So they’ll have two or three weeks of work before I get there, then a week or two with me. I still need to teach them to tether. What are the specific skills a driving horse needs before I take off? Tethering is one — if we can’t tether, we can’t go.
Bernie Harberts (13:35) They need to be pretty road reliable. Sounds like that’s already under control. But they’ve been pulling a two-wheel cart and you’re putting them in a nine-and-a-half-foot covered wagon. First thing I’d do is spend as much time as possible with them — you’re going to be living with them. That’s the foundation under this whole voyage. Then on the technical side: right now they’re in a breastplate?
Sea G Rhydr (14:52) Breastplate. I haven’t found a collar small enough for ponies, so that’s my only option. Biothane.
Bernie Harberts (15:13) Going from a two-wheel cart to a wagon means more weight and more distance. With the breastplate, there’s pressure from them leaning into it and friction from it moving back and forth. A tech hack I use is to put a little ShowSheen or Cowboy Magic — any silicone — under where the breastplate is going to sit, just smeared across. Helps it slide. Same idea as breaking in a saddle pad. The skin also isn’t used to that pressure yet and needs to build up. You might hear about putting vinegar on the skin to toughen it — I’ve never done it, might be too caustic. Short days are your best friend early on. Your first day might be five miles, and it probably shouldn’t be more.
Sea G Rhydr (17:36) I’m working with someone who’s going to help arrange really short days to start. I want them to think we’re just out on a picnic the first week or two.
Bernie Harberts (17:49) I love it. Literally, two to five miles sounds like nothing, but from long riding you know how fast a sore appears and how long it takes to heal. The temptation in those early days is always to push further.
Sea G Rhydr (18:37) How much time did you spend trotting versus walking?
Bernie Harberts (18:42) Very little. In the morning Polly wanted to go, and instead of fighting with her I’d let her trot. But the key was how I let her do it. I’d harness up, hook her up, and have her stand in the shafts first. Most important gait is whoa. Then I’d ask her to step up and walk, get her in that habit — whoa, walk — and then maybe trot. If you hook them up and they know they can trot right away, it’s not going to end well. Hook them up and just stand. Some days you might need to stand ten or fifteen minutes. Loose reins, hit the brake if they move. Just stand. That might be all you do that day.
Sea G Rhydr (19:54) I’ve never seen these ponies standing in harness. They really want to go.
Bernie Harberts (19:57) Which is great. But if you’ve got two animals ready to go and you’re on the ground trying to get settled, ask Angela Wood what happens. She got run over by her own wagon because the horses took off. She’s a fantastic teamster, but the horses that get let go right after hitching are the ones that cause trouble. That’s just conditioning to work on.
Sea G Rhydr (20:43) I’ve got a corgi coming too. I don’t want him getting run over.
Bernie Harberts (20:52) A good pre-flight routine could help — harness up, stand, hook up, corgi loaded, and just sit. Maybe the standing practice happens at the end of the day when they’ve worked a little, to condition them that standing in the shafts is normal. Once they’re walking as well as they can — they’ll be excited — then it’s fine to trot out and let them come back to walk sooner rather than later. Letting them trot too long just stacks the cards the wrong way.
Sea G Rhydr (21:57) How solid were your voice commands before you left?
Bernie Harberts (22:05) I get in the wagon, say hi to Polly, and ask her to step up — she walks off. I use gee for right, haw for left, easy to slow down, and whoa means stop. Whoa doesn’t mean slow down — it means stop. Don’t lie to your horse. Step up means a little faster too.
Sea G Rhydr (22:48) Did you have those solid before you started?
Bernie Harberts (22:53) No, it took a long time. Polly still doesn’t really respond to gee and haw, but she almost telepathically feels my intent. I can just close the fingers on my right hand and think “turning right” and she turns right. It’s just our connection.
Sea G Rhydr (23:27) When you’re walking with Polly on the ground, you’re up by her head. I’ve seen some teamsters walking back by their wagon. What are the pros and cons?
Bernie Harberts (23:32) I haven’t done both extensively, but here’s my thinking. If I’m walking next to a team on the left side and something spooks the horse, all I can do is pull on that rein — which turns the horse right into me. You can’t walk all day reaching across to hold the bridle of the horse away from you. That’s one reason I don’t prefer it. But walking up at their heads does give them a better sense of connection to you. It feels like the three of you are together. I like that dynamic better than being back at their hindquarters. The Amish probably have very good reasons for doing it their way — that’s just my opinion based on limited experience.
Sea G Rhydr (27:30) I’m thinking when we go uphill I’ll want to get out and walk to lighten the load. Where do I position myself?
Bernie Harberts (27:39) Good for you. And one thing in your favor is these are not 2,000-pound, eighteen-hand Percherons — these are ponies. You’ll have a lot more flexibility in that space. Just remember that wheel. It is so easy to get run down by your own wagon.
Sea G Rhydr (28:37) That’s my worry with the dog too.
Bernie Harberts (28:42) What’s your plan for him?
Sea G Rhydr (28:50) His name is Thick. He’s a corgi, eight years old, strong herding instinct. I’m getting him a harness with a sternum strap and a handle on the back so I can lift him into the wagon if I need to. There’s a clip so I can tie him in — don’t want him jumping out and hanging himself. There’s also a device mountain bikers use, a stick that goes out to the side with the leash on the end, so he can run alongside but can’t get under the wagon.
Bernie Harberts (30:02) You might want to reach out to Angela Wood. She did an amazing wagon voyage with a little dog named Schatzi. She’s super with her horses and has experience traveling with dogs. I’ll send you her email.
Sea G Rhydr (31:12) How does backing up with a wagon work?
Bernie Harberts (31:20) Set things up well in advance. I actually picture it from above, like a diagram of where the wagon is going to go when I back it. What you can’t do — what you want to be very careful about — is giving the horse a bad experience. If they have a bad back, they can start freaking out and rearing. Make sure there’s no friction under the wheels so when they step back, the wagon actually moves. That’s a no-brainer but it’s critical.
I didn’t back a lot. I could push my 1,200-pound wagon around by hand. The way I taught Polly was to get out of the wagon and position her left and right on the ground until the tongue was where I wanted it, then ask her to back up just as I would backing her into a stall. I trained her on the ground first because too many people sit in the wagon and pull on the lines — the horse doesn’t understand, or she backs up and the wagon doesn’t move, and there’s no quicker way to teach a horse to rear. I’d say “back, step back, step back” and start with just two or three steps, then stop. She became a really good backer.
This ties into going downhill too. The britching across their hindquarters serves two purposes: it helps push the wagon back when backing, and it helps hold the wagon on a hill. Going downhill, instead of riding the brakes, teach them to hold the wagon back with their hindquarters. Their first instinct is to move away from that pressure and trot down the hill — you don’t want that. Teach them gradually that they can accept that pressure and hold steady. Start with a small hill, ease the brake off a little, give a little tug on the lines and say “steady.” I’ve had brakes fail on a wagon, and you have to be able to stop on a hill. Very important.
Sea G Rhydr (36:36) I’m realizing I haven’t driven in thirty years. When I was eleven or twelve I drove my pony to church. Then I spent a winter in Wisconsin driving teams of Belgians for sleigh rides and training a two-and-a-half-year-old with her grandmother. I drove horse-and-buggy tourist rides in Baltimore. Drove a team for a wedding carriage job in Albany for a couple weeks.
Bernie Harberts (37:37) Stop right there. Why are you even asking me questions?
Sea G Rhydr (37:42) Because all of that was thirty years ago. And in all those other situations, everything was already set up — you know the route, the post is already there to tie to. It was all routine. None of it had hills. And when I realized that was half my life ago, that’s a different thing.
Bernie Harberts (38:44) Sure. But that’s great training. And from a long ride, you know — you started with not a huge amount of experience, all kinds of things went wrong, and it worked out. The wagon’s no different. It’s going to be fine.
Sea G Rhydr (38:44) What about diapers?
Bernie Harberts (39:02) I don’t use them. My policy with manure: if we’re going through a busy town, I keep going because it’s too dangerous to stop. If it’s on a nice quiet street, I kick it to the side of the road. Going across a pedestrian bridge in Newfoundland, Polly took a dump and I pushed it to the edge and kept going. Not ten minutes later someone chased me down. I went back and cleaned it up. In thousands of miles, that’s the only time it was ever an issue. In rural Nebraska, nobody gives it a second thought.
Sea G Rhydr (40:30) I had four horses going through Quartzsite, Arizona. One of them dumped on a bridge and a man on a bicycle came after us a mile down the road, furious. I finally pointed out it would have taken less energy to just kick it off the bridge than to come find us. And in the desert, it’s going to dry up and blow away anyway.
Bernie Harberts (41:22) I do carry a small plastic bag when I’m going through a town. Every now and then I’ll pick it up if I can’t kick it into the grass and toss it on the back of the wagon. Handful of times total. Not worth worrying about. On your ponies, that pile is going to be the size of a handful of M&Ms. How bad can it be?
Sea G Rhydr (42:56) I think that covers everything in my brain. Anything else I should know?
Bernie Harberts (43:00) Send me an email. But I think the two most important things are: first, build that foundational bond so this is a trip for the four of you — not you and Thick on one side and the ponies on the other. And second, I really love the spirit of what you’re doing — finding out what’s out there in the country. This is a great way to do it. And all the technical stuff, as you know from long riding, you figured it out as you went. The wagon’s no different. It’s going to be fine.
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